Join us for a deeply moving conversation about loneliness, caregiving, and reimagining how we support aging adults with Frances Wu, MSW, JD, who left a fifteen-year law career to become a social worker after realizing courts can advocate for people but can't cure loneliness. Hosted by Nirvana Tari, Chief Patient Officer at CareYaya.
In this thought-provoking episode, Frances shares her nonlinear journey from remembering colleagues' personal stories more than case precedents to running group therapy in psychiatric units, revealing why she became fascinated with the intimacy of social work over the intellectual pursuit of law. Discover her vision for third spaces, recognizable gathering places modeled after European town squares and Icelandic hot springs where healthy older adults can play games, do chair yoga, connect with friends, and be known by name in ADA-compliant environments that feel nothing like fluorescent-lit concrete senior centers. Learn why group therapy creates magic that individual therapy cannot, as depression support group members find relief in knowing they're not alone, reluctant participants end up talking despite themselves when others' stories resonate, and the burden of sharing becomes a gift when relationships balance out over time (sometimes it's ninety-ten, sometimes forty-sixty, never truly fifty-fifty).
Key insights include why the best gift for family caregivers is the gift of time itself (offering to sit with their loved one for three hours so they can have dinner out), the power of life reviews during holidays asking open-ended questions decade by decade about accomplishments and meaningful relationships to help seniors navigate Erikson's tension between integrity and despair, why American productivity culture has tragically sidelined elders who hold repositories of wisdom and family history rather than revering them as pillars, the importance of trips down memory lane tapping into long-term memory still intact when cognitive impairment arrives (that Paris trip in two thousand, songs from their youth), and Frances' passionate reminder that one in four Americans are now family caregivers managing impossible loads that can stretch five to fifteen years.
From noticing when grandpa falls asleep at gatherings because he's being sidelined in conversations he can't hear to understanding facial expressions showing distress when someone with dementia can't answer questions they feel they should know, Frances offers practical guidance wrapped in deep empathy. Learn why caregivers need support groups to normalize the full range of emotions including anger, resentment, and guilt that don't feel culturally justified, why social workers must prioritize self-care to avoid burning out from listening with their whole being, and how concrete offers beat vague what do you need questions every time (I'm going to the store, want ham or turkey, not what can I do to help).
This episode challenges the myth that caring for aging parents should come naturally and never feel hard, celebrates the privilege of living long enough to grow old (because if you don't get old, you die young), and makes the case that aging changes us in ways that demand we accept help rather than cling to impossible independence. Frances closes with her magic wand wish: shifting American attitudes to see elders not as people who've outlived their usefulness but as artists doing their best work late in life, grandparents lucky enough to still be here, and full human beings deserving reverence.
Brought to you by CareYaya. America's #1-rated solution for in-home senior care, providing industry-leading quality care at the most affordable rates. It is known especially for delivering the most reliable and affordable overnight senior care and 24/7 care in many major metro areas including Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, and Washington D.C.
This episode is essential for adult children watching parents experience isolation or cognitive changes, family caregivers drowning in guilt about feeling exhausted or resentful, anyone gathering with loved ones over holidays looking for meaningful ways to include seniors with brain changes, or professionals in helping fields seeking wisdom about sustainable intimate care without burning out. Happy holidays to everyone navigating the beautiful, impossible work of caregiving. And remember: it takes a village, relationships are never fifty-fifty, and the greatest gift we have is the people who surround us.
Episode Transcript:
Hello and good morning everybody and a happy, happy holidays to everyone. It's officially December and holiday season. Super, super excited to be here with today's guest, Frances Wu. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you so much. Of course. So happy to have you on here. Frances actually left her law career after realizing that courts can advocate for people, but they can't quite cure loneliness to become a social worker with a new vision for how our older adults should live. So yeah, again, welcome. Super excited to have you on and really, really eager for this episode. I've been giddy all week um so yeah thank you for having me thank you so much of course y'all know how it's gonna go we're gonna go ahead and start with the lightning round um and then we'll dive in with our deeper question so first things first it is the holiday season so i want to ask you what do you think is the best gift to give to a family caregiver Gosh, I mean, that's such a great question. I think that if we're talking about a tangible gift, anything that helps them relax. It can be a gift certificate for a massage or spa service or something like that. If we're talking intangible, an ear to listen to what they're going through. Yeah. They need to talk about it. That's so good. I love that. And also, if anyone's listening that knows me, the first part is a great gift for Nirvana too. So can you tell me one word to describe your journey from law to social work? And it's okay if it's a phrase too. Nonlinear. Yeah, actually, that's really good. That's a good one. Most underrated benefit of group therapy. I would say the intimacy and connection you have with a group of strangers. I like that. I actually quite like that. And if you could import one international aging practice to the U.S., what would it be? It would definitely be multigenerational housing and multigenerational activities. Yes, we are all about intergenerational relationships here at Keri Aya. So I love, love, love that answer so much. And what do you think is the emotion that caregivers don't talk about enough? Oh, God, the list is long. I would say just maybe at the top, anger, resentment, loneliness. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like another good one that I just thought of is guilt as well. Yes. Breaks my heart every single time. Yes, that's a big one. I know. I totally. Well, thank you. That was an invigorating lightning round. I'm very energized. So I'm curious. You became a lawyer and then, of course, completely pivoted to social work. Like you said, that's not exactly a lateral move. So can you walk us through that journey? What was the moment that you realized that law wasn't where you belonged anymore? Oh, that's a, hmm. I don't know that there was a moment. I think it was a gradual buildup. And what I noticed about myself, and so I practiced law for fifteen years, and what I noticed over that period of time was that I became very interested in my colleagues' personal stories or the clients' personal stories. I would remember personal details about their lives that they would share with me. And You know, I was always trying to have a conversation with someone about their personal life. I was very curious. And of course, that's not what I was hired for. I was hired to do the legal work. And I think as time went on, I sort of started to feel like I had an itch to scratch that, you know, maybe... um maybe I had a talent for something else that wasn't wasn't the law I mean the law it can be a draining profession like so many professions it's very demanding stressful and I think um you have to have a real connection to the material and that sort of intellectual, um, pursuit, desire for that love of that, um, to sustain it over, over a long period of time. And I think for me, that was waning and, but I continued to be curious about the people I was around. So, so when I turned I sort of decided to leave cold Turkey without knowing what I was going to do. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. So you didn't know you were going to go into social work. Correct. Wow. News to me. Which is why I said it was a non-linear path because then I had to figure it out. I had to try things. And at that time, I had young children. They were in school. I didn't have any hobbies. I didn't have any friends that weren't lawyers. And so I really felt like I was starting from scratch. So I just started trying things. I tried so many different activities. Just a lot. It was a journey for sure. That's cool. Yeah. And then what did you do in social work? So I was also reading books on finding your passion. And finally, I read one where the author said, forget about finding your passion. That's not the right question. The question you need to think about is how do you spend your free time? And it just clicked for me because all of my free time was spent having, you know, kind of coffees and lunches with people and listening to what was going on with them. I watched tons of documentaries. I read biographies. I read memoirs. Just any true life story was very enticing to me. And so then then it was clear to me. You're going to have to send me your book recommendations because that, that sounds really, really awesome. I, I really, I love that. That's a really cool way of like framing an age old question. Yeah. I thought it was so, I said, oh, I wish I would have read his book first. It saved me a lot of time. Yeah. I, I feel like that's, that's something that's like, not like we always say at the office here is it's not work if you're having fun. Um, and I feel like that's, that should be applied more on like a day-to-day basis in people's people's jobs, because. If you spend so many of your hours each week doing something as like a means to an end, like why not make it something that you're truly passionate about and like, want to like that you would choose to do on your own free time as well. Yeah. And I mean, I think the other thing I learned from the journey is that there's no substitute for doing something. And so you can sit at your desk and think about something you might like to do, like be an interior designer or what have you. I mean, one of the things I did in that interim period was a friend and I had an upcycling furniture business where we stripped down old furniture and we painted it and sold it at flea markets and things like that. so it sounded great it was a lot of hard back-breaking labor it was manual labor so i think um i would say to anyone who's thinking about switching careers that you know do something first before you commit to it like even take a class or talk to someone who's doing it try and get into it because it's hard to know unless you do it I love that. That's great practical advice for literally anyone from the ages of five to ninety nine. So that's that's great. I want to pivot a little bit and talk about your passion project, which is creating third spaces for seniors. So for listeners who aren't maybe familiar, what exactly is a third space to start off? And why should busy professionals in their forties care about where their parents are hanging out? Yeah. So a third space is basically a place that is not work or home, that people go to relax, rest, recharge, connect, socialize. So we're talking about parks. We're talking about community centers, restaurants, cafes, pubs, barbershops. dog parks, you know, like anywhere where you're, you think of as sort of leisurely in a sense. But they serve a very important function because people are socializing in those places. And I think it's all the more important now because technology has, has sort of robbed us of some of that human to human interaction. Yep. Sorry, go ahead. I was going to say that's something that we actively try and combat because also a lot of the times, especially for older adults, technology that is being created is like with well intention and things like that, but it doesn't even serve the purpose that it was meant to serve to begin with, because it's not created with that end person and that end result in mind, which is something that just like irks me to no end either, because I feel like technology can actually be used as like a enhancer of connection and like allowing people to like build like genuine relationships by using technology to do things that would take time away from spending it with other people, for example. But I feel like it's not happening enough and I feel like we're not using technology to its greatest potential. Yeah, definitely. So when I started, you know, I like to travel and I always notice kind of what the third spaces are in other countries. And a lot of the old European cities, for example, will have sort of a town square or center, a park where you will see elderly people gathering. I actually went to Iceland this year and I learned that one of their gathering places is in these hot springs that are all over the country. And so they might have, you know, meet friends at the hot spring or have a little business meeting in the hot spring. And I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. And so, you know, here in the US, we have Starbucks, which is kind of ubiquitous. And it's actually all over the world now, right? But if you think about, I mean, a lot of the US is kind of this urban suburban sprawl. And not everyone lives in a walkable city. If you live in a walkable city in the US, great, you have access to all of these sort of ready third spaces. But I think for the majority of people who live in the suburbs and beyond, where do you go for that? And one of the things I was noticing is that some of the senior centers are really unattractive. They're often concrete buildings. You go in and it's fluorescent lighting and not particularly comfortable. and started thinking about you know this idea of what is something that seniors could go to um again with the familiarity the informality where people go to connect right and if you think about it starting early in life we do that. We have a place to go. Toddlers go to preschool and they connect. And after they've gone a number of times, usually there's some crying first, but when they go a number of times, they start to make friends. They start to look forward to seeing their friends. And those of us who are adults in the work world, well, pre-pandemic, we had that. We would go to work. Now a lot of people work at home, which is a whole different issue. Okay. But for seniors, they need someplace to go to where people are going to know their name and they can connect with friends, make new friends, engage in... you know, not just discussion, conversation, but sometimes they'll do, I'm imagining a facility that has, you know, food and drink that is conducive to their diets, ADA compliant, obviously, because mobility is often an issue, maybe some indoor, outdoor space, somewhere they can go and play games, where they can have people come and talk to them and maybe teach them a little bit about technology. You know, just a lot of things, almost like a little kind of like school for them. It's the main purpose being sociability and connection. And community, building community. I really love that. You know, a lot of the times there's just this tension between wanting to keep older adults safe and still wanting them to stay connected. So all the things that you just mentioned are like, the perfect way of kind of bringing those two things together and a place that's ADA compliant and has healthy foods and allows for them to still engage with the people that either they've known throughout their lives or are meeting just now in a place where they can do it safely. So I really, really like that concept. Yeah, I think it's important. And I guess sort of what I was envisioning was maybe even like a turnkey where there's like a blueprint for it. It's recognizable. And, you know, they're going to be all over the U.S. and somewhere and maybe we'll have a shuttle to go pick people up. But people could seniors could go and have a good time and see their friends. And there would be some technology, maybe like places for them to put their medication and in case they're going to stay for half the day or, you know, a little bit of exercise, maybe chair yoga, things like that, where they have some meaning and purpose and connection. I think it's really, really important. Frances, you've got my wheels turning. I feel like me, you, a developer, and we can make this happen. I would love to do that. Let's do it. I feel like that's awesome. Why hasn't someone done that yet? I Um, but that's kind of different because most of the time that's geared towards people who are experiencing cognitive impairment or, um, you know, something like that, where, but, and I feel like when we do create these spaces, it's oftentimes not for like the healthy older adult or the older adult that is, you know, um, still like fully independent, if that kind of like makes sense. So I think that are like, you know, mostly independent. So. Let's do it. I think that that's awesome. I do want to give a shout out because here in the Triangle area, we have a really awesome community center in Chapel Hill called the Seymour Center where they have these activities and things in place. But any of the other places that I've visited, I feel like there isn't that sense of community where you know, older adults, just feel free to walk in, do a neck yoga and make themselves a cup of coffee. Go like, there's like, you know, if there's like pets on site that day, go hang out with the pets and then just, you know, go right back home. And I think it's such a simple concept that just needs to be breathed life into and bring it, bring it about everywhere. Yeah, there actually is something here too that kind of got me thinking about it. And I used to work at Iona Senior Services, which is a senior service center here in Northwest Washington, D.C. And they have a program where they, and they have it in a church. in a local church and people go from like nine AM to two PM. And there's all of these things. And they often have a social worker on the premises who can help seniors with issues around social security or other paperwork type issues. But there's, but they, but they do the, the exercise, they talk, they have breakfast, they have lunch. Sometimes they watch a movie. And so it's that concept where it's like, Oh, you're going to go see your friends. Yeah. That's good. And it's, and it's, In like a non-pressured way too, where it's like, you know, that's, yeah, I love that. I really, really do. So, you know, throughout our conversations, I kind of learned that you are a pretty big advocate for group therapy. You know, whether it's caregiver groups, depression groups, or groups for just older adults themselves. So what happens in a room full of people going through similar struggles that maybe you haven't seen or can't happen in one-on-one therapy? Yes. So individual and group therapy, the common thing is that people are coming to kind of name, articulate, process feelings and emotions. I mean, that's what I would say the overlap is. But in individual therapy, it's the client and the therapist. And it's not the therapist's job to talk about their own life to the client. and make those disclosures, they're there to listen and help the client process. And so that is the main difference because in group therapy, particularly like if we're talking about a support group, right? Let's just say we have a depression support group. You know, if you come to this group that everyone has some experience with depression in that group. And if you've ever tried to explain depression to someone who's not depressed, it's very hard to do. It's very hard to describe that state of being. So if you come to a depression support group, you know that everyone there knows something about it. So there's already this common thread that provides some comfort, like this idea that we're all in the same boat together. And then there's the, you know, when people are sharing their stories, there's something about hearing other people's stories that that make us feel less alone. Like they resonate, you know, we learn something from other people's experience, but it also normalizes what we feel that I'm not the only person in the world feeling this way. And I think that is the beauty of a group among other things. I love that. I feel like that's going to be kind of like the common thread of this is community and just like having people who are, you know, you can turn to and you can like trust and support at the end of the day. That's that's the greatest gift that we have is the people that surround us. Um, and the people are, you know, going through the same experiences as us and people who are even not going through the same experiences as us. Um, and like learning about what the experiences they're going through as well. Um, you know, so for maybe for a listener that's, um, going through something like their parents struggling with isolation or depression, How would you go about convincing someone to try group therapy when they say, you know, I'm not a group person or I don't want to burden others with my problems? Yeah, it's a good question. I hear those things a lot. Yeah. So I recently, um, I worked for five years in a psychiatric unit, in a hospital, in a local hospital, and I ran group therapy in the psychiatric unit. So everyone on the unit had to come to my groups and some of them didn't want to, but it was kind of what the programming was. And people would say that I'm not really a group person, or I really don't want to share, but they had to come. And so I guess, you know, one thing is maybe talk to them about just coming to observe. Because my experience with the inpatient groups was that people who were reluctant to come and came and didn't say anything or said they weren't going to talk ended up talking anyway. And it's because when other people are sharing and telling their stories and they're resonating, you almost feel pulled to join in. Right. And there's a tremendous sense of relief, I think, for people to know that, you know, somebody else is experiencing something similar and they're they're talking about it. And so you kind of despite themselves, you know, and the desire not to speak, they find themselves speaking. Oh, me too. That happened to me too. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, as to your question about the burden, I hear that a lot too. And the truth is that we as humans, we're wired to attach to each other and we all burden each other. hopefully not at the same time, it's a give and take, it's a give and take. So sometimes I need you to listen to me and sometimes I'm gonna listen to you. You're gonna have good years, bad years, I'm gonna have good years and bad years. And so it's okay if I've called you twenty times this year to talk about my problems because maybe next year you're going to be having a bad year and you'll be calling me. It goes back and forth. It evens out over time. Totally. And that's, I love that. I really love that you brought that concept up because that's something I've been trying to kind of implement in my day-to-day life as well of just like understanding one, that it takes a village and two, relationships are never fifty-fifty. It's always, sometimes it's ninety-ten. Sometimes it's forty-sixty. Sometimes it's, you know, it's varies so much and it really does genuinely balance over time like whether that is romantic relationships really your friends co-workers anything I feel like there's almost never like a fifty fifty balance and you're always kind of like there's this give and take but as long as like that understanding is there and everyone acknowledges that you know at the end of the day it takes a village. Humans are social creatures that need each other in order to make it through this thing called life, then I think we're pretty golden. Yeah, I agree with you. I completely agree. So, um, you know, you said to me a couple of times that both, um, and you know, of course we all know this, um, law and social work, of course, helping professions. Um, but, uh, you've also mentioned that social work is a lot more intimate and therefore kind of personally satisfying. So what does intimate care look like in practice and how do you navigate that closeness and kind of like that, um, influx of like conversations and maybe quote unquote problems coming to you without burning out? Great question, because we have a lot of burnout in our profession, as you know. It's unfortunate. Yeah, I mean, the intimacy part, I think, comes from people sharing their personal stories with you. You know, they're kind of interesting you with information that is is about their personal lives that might feel vulnerable or hard, challenging, difficult. And for me. it's such a privilege to be privy to somebody's confidences in that way that they're entrusting you with this information and they're sharing it because they they want to they want to get help they want to be better um I will say that social workers have to prioritize self-care. It's something that we're taught. It's not always easy. I think that you're listening with your heart and mind, like kind of your whole being, and that can be exhausting, particularly if you have a whole day of clients. even if you're somebody who's extroverted, you might feel like, oh, I don't need to talk to anyone anymore because it's a lot of just connection and interaction and attunement. And so I think the self-care has to be prioritized and that's exercising, relaxing, recharging, whatever that might be for you, if it's with other people or alone and being able to release the emotion, which is not always an easy thing. You know, people, you kind of take on people's emotions, whether it's anger, loss, grief, whatever it might be. And I think every social worker will have those stories of a client's story that's sitting in them. And, um, but it's important to be able to sort of release it because otherwise you're not going to be any good for the long haul. You know, you're going to be sort of tapped out, occupied, preoccupied and not that helpful. And I feel like a lot of the times, like American hustle culture doesn't allow breaks. But breaks are so important. Sorry, I'm moving away from my mic because I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm thinking so deeply. But American hustle culture, a lot of the times, doesn't really allow for breaks. And I feel like it's so, so important to be intentional with your time, and specifically your time off um and like you know those self-care practices and taking those breaks when necessary and knowing that it's okay to take a step back if you feel like something is like becoming too much because at the end of the day like can't really pour from an empty cup either so if you're yeah constantly feeling like oh my gosh like give give give give give like it's a no take some for yourself and you know go take a walk in the park like go grab yourself that like drink that you really really enjoy um Why not treat yourself and be, again, you only live once and taking care of yourself is the best way to take care of other people. Absolutely. You know, like the whole thing about being on the airplane and putting on your mask first. I think it's so important in all of these helping professions, you know, like physicians, nurses, anyone who's in health care, where you're dealing in this one-on-one capacity. And I mean, not to denigrate the law. Of course, being a lawyer is very taxing also, but it feels like a different kind of energy that's being used. I think when you're emotionally hooked into people, there's this need to sort of release it. Like I was saying, you really have to sort of be able to kind of let it go. Yeah. um and not sort of carry it around with you because it does start weighing you down after a while and that's kind of where the burnout starts a hundred percent a thousand we it's seen all the time and that there's a reason why um you know burnout and healthcare professionals is like at an all-time high is that's you know a profession where you're just like you are giving your all to that person and um we don't have the safeguards in place to kind of like keep that from happening so Yes, it's practices like these and people like you that are going to hopefully change that for the generations coming and going forward. I do want to switch gears a little bit into the holidays because it's that time of the year. And I want to talk a little bit more about your perspectives and thoughts for family caregivers during this time. My first one is, what are some of your recommendations for including a loved one with brain change or cognitive impairment and holiday celebrations in a way that feels meaningful and not just performative? And then maybe just to follow up on that, what are some small adjustments that can make a pretty big difference? Yeah, I think that for people with cognitive impairment or if they feel like something's changing cognitively, there's often this sense of worry or fear that's palpable. Like they know something's off. Yeah. And I think it can be very reassuring to sit with them and listen to them, listen to them, talk about it, try and get them to talk about it. If they will, not everyone will, but try and kind of entice them to talk about it. Like what's bothering you? What are you noticing that's different? But then also kind of, reviewing the good times with them. Often, you know, when people are going into dementia and Alzheimer's and things like that, the long-term memory is the last to go. So if you kind of go back to, you know, that trip to Paris that you guys took in two thousand or songs from their youth, those are things that are probably still intact in their memory. And it gives them, it gives them joy. It gives them a sense of relief. It gives them a sense of Like, yes, I'm still here. Yes, that was me. And so, yeah, I think those kinds of conversations about the past can be very helpful in that way. trips down memory lane are always one of my first recommendations when it comes to someone who is um you know experiencing uh cognitive impairment to some extent and it's something that kind of like allows you to feel as that sense of control again and um feel like everything's gonna be okay and also i feel like the holidays are a time where a lot of families have like traditions um and they have like things that they've been doing since they were like little Um, so that might be something to even like continue tapping into, or like, you know, you haven't done this since you were like, and like live in your parents' house. Like, why not? Like, kind of like back out and have it be something that sparks joy again. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. The other thing I would say about seniors in general is that, you know, there's a psychoanalyst named Erickson who talked about the different life stages. And for the senior stage, which he defined as ages sixty five and above, there's this tension between he would describe a psychosocial struggle at every stage of life. And for seniors, it's um integrity versus despair integrity being like when you look back upon your life kind of in its totality do you feel a sense of do you derive a sense of meaning and purpose that it was a meaningful life and the despair part is when you look back and you feel regrets And so I think, you know, sometimes we do life reviews with seniors and that could be, the holidays can be a good time to kind of sit down and start some of that. And they're basically life reviews are open-ended questions about somebody's life. And you can go decade by decade and there's guidance online about it, how to do one. But you ask them open-ended questions. What were your... challenges in this decade what were the accomplishments um what were the meaningful relationships that you had you know what do you remember from your career what are your proudest moments of your career you know all of that stuff and so that they're you're kind of painting the big picture of their life and that could be a very meaningful activity to do with loved ones around the holidays I love that. That's really, really great. Pivoting kind of towards the more caregiver side of how to help out family caregivers, because the holidays can feel incredibly lonely for family caregivers. Watching everyone else enjoy the festivities and travel. They're managing medication and giving baths and focusing on dietary restrictions. I know we kind of talked about gifts for caregivers, but what's like another tangible way that someone can support a caregiver more specifically during the holidays? I think that when you think about the sacrifices caregivers are making in their own lives, they also have their own lives. They often have children and jobs and everything. And so just all of the practical, concrete support that you can give to them, bringing them food, making grocery runs for them, offering to pick up their kids, if they have young kids, offering to take their kids for a while. you know just giving them a night off if they have a senior that they're looking after who doesn't require anything complex like an iv drip or something like maybe you could go sit with that person for three hours while the caregiver can go out to dinner like practical things that are just going to make their lives easier the gift of time yeah yeah absolutely that's so such a um what's the word, meaningful, but also like, you know, something that will actually truly make an impact and make that person feel seen, which is really, really important because a lot of times you can get lost in that role of caregiving and forget who you even are. So that's, I really like that answer. I know that there's sort of this cultural narrative that caring for your aging parents is something that should just be coming naturally to you and that If you really love them, it shouldn't be hard to take care of them and this, that and the next. So do you have any tactics for helping caregivers work through the guilt when they're feeling exhausted or frustrated? I mean, this is honestly one of the things that I think is the best part of being part of a group. I think it's so useful to be part of a caregiver support group because these are exactly the kinds of things people talk about. People talk about the guilt. Yeah. they talk about the whole range of emotions, the grief, the sadness, the anxiety, sometimes feeling incompetent, feeling unappreciated. All of these really hard feelings, the sadness, you know, watching your loved one kind of go through things that are really difficult towards the end of life. The anger, the resentment. They're not things that might feel... justified in people's minds, like kind of going to what you were saying about the cultural narrative that we should be glad to be taking care of our parents or whoever. But the fact is that it's such a taxing job emotionally, mentally, physically and financially for some people. And they need a place to talk about it. So even if, you know, they're not in a group, you can take them out one on one. and say, let's go to dinner. And, you know, I want to hear about how it's been for you, you know, the last couple of months or the last year, because the other thing about the caregiving is it often goes nowadays, people are living longer. It can go on for years. You could be a caregiver for five to ten, fifteen years. And that's that's a lot. It's a lot. Absolutely. I think that's that's and, you know, it's as easy as like there are there's There's online support groups. There's in-person support groups. Even if you feel like there isn't one in your community that you may feel like you would belong to, like in-person, I'm sure there's so many other resources out there as well that people can look into and kind of become a part of. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because that was maybe one of the best things, in my opinion, to come out of the pandemic was that a lot of the groups had to move online. And now a lot of them are available online. I still think it's preferable if you can go in person, but really understanding that people have limited time and resources. Sometimes it's easier just to click on your computer and there's your group. Yeah. at your fingertips and, you know, you have an hour to talk and listen and share. And it's enormously relieving. Again, it's that feeling of being in the same boat and having whatever you're feeling be normalized. Like, yes, we get why you feel that way. We feel the same way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like a good way to just kind of like dip your toes in the water as well. If you're feeling intimidated by going in somewhere in person too, you could just, you online at the comfort of your own home. Yes. Then like kind of like explore further options after that, too. Absolutely. I'm going to ask my favorite question that I love asking on these podcasts, and that is the magic wand question. And then we'll go ahead and jump right into our audience questions from there. So if Francis, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about how we approach aging in America, whether it's policy infrastructure or cultural attitude, whatever the case may be, what would it be? i would have to say attitude i think that you know you look at other cultures and the elderly are um regarded in a much more reverent way and there's sort of this acknowledgement of everything that they hold which is this repository of stories and lore and wisdom and they have so much to offer and you know people who are artists a lot of times do their best work late in life because you have had all of those life experiences and they're able to express sort of freely and liberally but I think there's something about American culture where for whatever reason, we're so focused on productivity, that it's it's almost like, okay, well, these people have outlived their usefulness. And so we're just going to put them over here. And I think that that's not the right way to look at it. They are full of wisdom. And in many cases, they're sort of the pillars of the family history. Like if you have a grandparent and you're in your mid forties or whatever, you're lucky, you know, like they have stories. They can tell you a lot about the past and, you know, so I, if I could change that, that's what I would change. have never loved an answer more in my entire life. Genuinely, a hundred percent. I feel like as a whole, maybe American, maybe Western culture is obsessed with this idea of, and, you know, like staying young forever. And I'm like, I think it is the biggest honor and biggest privilege to age and live a long life. Because if you don't get old, then you die young and no one wants to die young. And I think that the whole concept of productivity is so warped because all the things that we were talking about here, like taking breaks, like taking time for yourself are extremely productive. But a lot of the times the culture can make it feel like It's the complete wrong thing to be doing in that moment in time. So thank you for mentioning that. And I really hope that even just one person take away from this call is that it's okay to take a break. Then we've done our jobs. or this podcast, not this call. But all right. So we have a question here. Thank you for being on, Frances. With holidays coming up, what's one thing, oh, I like this one. What's one thing that families do during the holidays with good intentions that might actually make things harder for older adults or caregivers? And this I'll draw from my own personal experience. I think The big holiday gatherings with all of the extended family and family are hard for seniors potentially because they sometimes get lost in the shuffle. You know, like if we have a lot of twenty somethings or thirty somethings, people who are young professionals, cousins, everyone's talking. Sometimes it's as simple as they can't really hear. And so they get a little bit sidelined on the conversations or a lot sidelined. So I think it's important to kind of think about those things with the big holiday gatherings that not everyone's on equal footing. And sometimes people have mobility issues, so they can't readily go downstairs to the basement where everybody is or just little things like that. where we're paying special attention to what are their needs. And maybe if you're going to have a big party, maybe assign people to be by their side or like rotate. Yes. I was just going to say, we do that in our family. My grandpa is hard of hearing and absolutely refuses hearing aids. This man has been hard of hearing since, I don't even know, since I was, I can remember. But having conversations with him is the most delightful like enjoyable like experience like i love that man i actually just got him the um because he's not here he lives in in iran and i haven't seen him in like seven years so i'd like just live for our face times um but i just got him the um not an ad by any means but the apple airpods have like some hearing aid like capacity oh great fine we've been able to like have conversations on FaceTime without needing a translator sitting next to him being like, this is what she just said. And, but during gatherings, like growing up and everything like that, it would always be one grandkid on grandpa duty we would fight for it. Like, it's like, Oh my gosh, like who gets it? Who gets their turn now? Like move. It's my turn. So I really, Oh, I love that you fought for that spot. He's honestly like, yeah, he's just like, he's hilarious in all of the right ways and would just, yeah. But, um, sorry to kind of take over on that question. I just got rid of it. No, but I love it. I love it. You guys are way ahead of the curve. Yeah, it was, um, I'm trying to decide whose idea it was. I think it was one of the younger cousins. He's like, It's like, why don't we just each like spend like, like, you know, twenty, thirty minutes with them and then like we can we can rotate in and out. And then sometimes you get a second shift. And that was that was really, really cool. Yeah. Yeah. We also have another question here. that also kind of in the holiday realm. So families assume that holidays are joyful, but again, they can be stressful for many reasons, overstimulating, disorienting, or even lonely. So maybe can you share some signs that our audience can spot when their loved one may not be actually having a good time? Yeah, it's a great question and kind of related a little bit to the first question. I mean, so one thing about elderly is they might fall asleep more easily than the rest of us. And that's not necessarily a sign that they're uncomfortable, but it can be. It can be. It can be a sign that they're tuned out. That they're not being included. I mean, so I think that's something to look for. There are facial expressions, you know, I mean, it's, it's, I think it's important to kind of track that. I mean, their face can tell you a lot about how they're feeling in terms of comfort or discomfort. Yeah. In particular, I feel like people who have cognitive impairment or are maybe entering dementia, sometimes you can see they get distressed if they can't answer one of your questions, because I think what they're thinking is. I can't answer this question, but I feel like I should know this answer. Right, right. And then again, it's like we were talking about earlier. It's this awareness that something's wrong, but I don't know what it is. And that can be, you know, so so if you're having a conversation with a senior and you feel like you're going down that road and you're starting to see that they're getting worried or stressed or agitated, you can just, you know, redirect them, change the subject, maybe go get something to eat. Yeah. But I think it's easy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pivoting and kind of like, you know, it's a lot of the times, just like you said, like being aware of whether it's facial expressions or just knowing, because at the end of the day, this is someone that you've known, like for most of your life, especially if it's your parent or something like that. So you probably understand their mechanisms and things like that. And just giving them the grace and even giving them outs before they have to ask for it themselves. Being like, hey, I'm kind of ready to go. You want to head out together? And just kind of being there for them and giving the option to do that without making them feel like they are missing out on something or are, quote unquote, burdensome. I hate that word. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that sort of attunement to them, right? We want to be attuned to them and what's going on with them. And that's going to be some verbal cues and probably a lot of nonverbal cues. Absolutely. A hundred percent. We got one more audience question and then I'll wrap up really quickly with my very last question. I know we're going over time, so thank you guys for bearing. But for a healthcare professional that's watching, what do you think is the biggest gap that you see both in elder care services that someone needs to be building or it's something that needs to be addressed right now, specifically in the healthcare field? Oh, it looks like this question is directed at both of us. That's oh, oh, yeah, you're right. Oh, that's nice. Thanks for asking me a question too. Let's see. I would say caregiver support. I feel like sometimes caregivers feel like they are not Like a lot of times they feel like, you know, obviously they're putting the needs of someone else first a lot of the times. And I think it's important that when they go to these like appointments and they do these things that their needs are also acknowledged and that they are also addressed in the same way. It might be as easy as like, you know, if you're going to like a doctor's visit, having the medical assistant spend five, ten minutes with the older adult and the clinician kind of just like checking in with the caregiver and making sure that they're doing okay. I say that specifically because a lot of my work is just, you know, talking with family caregivers. And a lot of the times, all they need is just like a listening ear. And especially if that listening ear is like a professional listening ear to some extent, I feel like that'll do wonders. What about you, Francis? What you think in there? Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with that given like how, you know, caregivers are just so strapped. And, you know, I just read this report on caregiving that, you know, it's one in four Americans are family caregivers now, and that's a huge number. So in addition to caregiver support, I think there needs to be more of a pool of professional caregivers. so that people who can afford it can have the option to do that. Because, you know, there's so many little things. I mean, if we think about the continuum of caregiving, you know, there's paperwork, there's taking people to appointments, there's kind of documenting what the doctor says, there's all of the, and then there's all of the person's physical needs. And so I think you know, having more of a pool of caregivers who can do kind of all of these different kinds of discrete tasks would be useful, really useful for this country. There's a huge nationwide caregiver shortage going on right now where, you know, it's turnover rates are at an all time high. Caregiving is ridiculously unaffordable. A lot of the times people are completely priced out of the market and it's not something that they can do. And I think that we need better infrastructure in place to allow for respite care to be like a bigger, more prominent part of people's lives. And for just like better treatment of our caregivers and making sure that they're getting fair wages and they're not overworked, underpaid and underappreciated. Um, and a lot of the times I, you know, I feel like with. We have sort of bridged some of these gaps, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done at the end of the day. Like, yes, of course it's a lot more affordable than other caregiving options, but some people can't even afford like five dollars an hour, um, when it comes to care. So then that goes back to like government infrastructure and having safeguards in place where every single. family caregiver can get that respite and that break that they need no matter their financial status. So, yeah. And then just to wrap things up with a pretty little bow on top, if our audience is gonna walk away with just one thing from this conversation, what do you want that to be? Just one thing from this conversation. Or two if you can't pick. Yeah. I think it's the awareness of what's going on with caregivers. You know, frankly, I was stunned to read there's one in four in the US right now. And I know it's going on in my family. It's primarily my sister. And, you know, when you think about the tremendous sacrifice, right, because a lot of those people have jobs and they have kids and they have lives that they're running. And then to take care of someone on top of it, it's exhausting. And it can be financially taxing and emotionally draining. And so I think that if all of us can support a caregiver, if everyone can kind of reach out, talk to them, ask them about how they're doing, you know, give them that space to talk. But also, you know, whatever concrete material support you can provide and being specific, not just like, what do you need? Sometimes they don't know what they need. Like, you know, just say like, I'm going to the store. I'll pick you up some stuff. that kind of thing, concrete support so that they can just say, great. We're already making a million and one decisions in their everyday, day to day life. Don't have more choices. I mean, like you can say, I'm going to the store. Do you want me to pick you up ham or turkey? Like, that's a good choice to give. But what do you need? That's so broad. Like, I need this right now. Like, I'm all good. Thank you is generally going to be the answer because it's going to be harder to think of something that they need and like relay that to you. So Yeah, but I think this conversation was absolutely invigorating. And there's like about seventy five questions that are going through my head right now that I would like to follow up with. But we've already gone over our time and I might have to ask you to come back on the podcast in twenty twenty six. Because I feel like there's just so much more to uncover and talk about. And we're only at the tip of the iceberg. I would love to. And I would love to work with you on my passion project. So let's do that tonight. Please, let's do it. Let's make third spaces. I would really, really love that. Let's keep the conversation going. I appreciate everybody for being here. Happy, happy holidays to you and your families. And happy Friday, too. I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend. And thanks again, Frances, for your time. Thank you, Nirvana. Bye, everybody. Take care. Bye.